thoughtful and well written...5s

I don't think it's just the 'victim' thinking, it's also used as an excuse even when they don't feel that they are a victim. It's a natural human emotion to want revenge whether or not you feel victimized, sometimes it's all about pride. Especially if you feel that the method you used to attack someone leaves you feeling superior, then if you suffer, whether by revenge or by your attack not working the way you want, it amounts to you wanting more revenge. I think we just have to realize that not everyone wants peace. There are some who are addicted to power and power manifests to some through the destruction of others. It's not about winning the war, it's about dominating the other party.

Thoughtful parody, and I do wish more conflicts could be resolved peacefully. But, Phil, are you suggesting that if the Israelis stopped defending themselves, the Palestinians would discontinue their homicide bombing? And are you suggesting that it took one month or four months for the dust from the 9/11/01 terrorist attack on the New York Trade Center Towers to hit the ground? Because the coalition did not attack the Taliban in Afghanistan until 10/7/01 (supported by a UN resolution) and Bush did not make his Axis of Evil speech (implicating Iraq, Iran, and North Korea) until January, 2002.

Tim - yes, but there is definitely a self-justification that comes from thinking of oneself as a victim, especially thinking that one does not deserve to be punished for ones excesses
JJ - if by "defending themselves", you mean blasting seven kinds of hell out of an apartment building that contained who knows how many other people as well as their "target", then yes I do think that the Israelis should stop - your skewed logic is *precisely* the sort of thing I'm talking about, here: how does being the target for terrorist suicide bombings justify killing *INNOCENT* people? People who had no connection to the event concerned, other than to have the same generic label, in this case "Palestinians". If they'd behaved properly towards the Palestinians as a people, who knows what the situation in the ME would be like today. Re the "dust hitting the ground" timescale - the "we will find who organized them and get revenge" speech was made before the dust *had* settled, literally. And using 9/11 as a justification for ten times the civilian casualty figures that have resulted from the Iraq invasion is, again, exactly the sort of skewed logic I mean.

Phil, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been going on so long that it is hard to say when it started, but I would allocate most of the blame to Yasir Arafat for breaking multiple peace pacts in the 1990s and then completely subverting the peace process during and after the 2000 Camp David (failed) peace summit. He rejected a generous offer of land and peace from the Israelis and initiated a Palestinian intifada, which included shootings and bombings not only from Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but from militias that he controlled. Palestinian terrorism does not seem to have diminished since Arafat's death. Feel free to blame Israel for Palestinian terrorism if you would like, but I think you are taking a very narrow look at the conflict.

You're not reading what I'm saying, John - I'm NOT blaming Israel for Palestinian terrorism, that's a distortion of what I'm trying to say. What I am saying is that killing innocent people (and the large majority of those killed by Israel have been), they are making things worse for themselves, not better. Calling it "self-defence" is self-delusion in an attempt at self-justification.